Panerai-kaféen - løst og fast om Panerai

[BRIO1368]

Thanks again for your extensive comments. I admire your level of detail here and also in your articles on perezcope.com. Your tenacity helps me focus my arguments too, and I'll try to explain why your point of departure isn't necessarily the only valid one

The overall question here is "What does the PAM 127 refer to?"
Was it supposed to be a near replica of one particular watch, i.e., the PAMPL001?
Or, was it supposed to be a tribute to a great era of Panerai watchmaking?

Based on the sources I have already cited, it seems to me that the latter is the case, and that's also my point of departure. However, my impression is that your point of departure is the former; that the 127 is meant to be a near replica of the PAMPL001. So, with different points of departures, we might view the evidence in a different light and possibly reach different conclusions

We have already discussed case designs and movements. So, what about the Luminor dial?



I can't see that you have provided any evidence to support your claim either. So, I'll provide a piece of evidence that counters your claim of Luminor being introduced around 1962/63 (I guess you're very familiar with this one).

At Sotheby’s auction “Important Watches”, held in Geneva on 14th May 2014, an extremely rare example of a Luminor from circa 1955 was sold for CHF 425,000. The watch belonged to the late Admiral Gino Birindelli (1911–2008) from the Royal Italian Navy.

Vis vedlegg 80130

REF 6152/1 LUMINOR CASE 12948 CIRCA 1955​

This early Luminor also came with a certificate letter signed by Dino Zei, who was the Chairman of Panerai during the years 1972–1997.

Officine Panerai themselves acknowledges that this Luminor is dated circa 1955:

Sotheby's Record Auction for Officine Panerai​

Its date is also acknowledged by your friend Jake Ehrlich on his blog Jake's Panerai World:

Ultra-Rare 1955 Luminor Panerai Prototype​

An important point is also what we mean by a date? What does it mean that a watch is from, e.g., 1955?
So, if the point of departure is Panerai's tribute to their watchmaking in the 1950s, what should we emphasize?

We can choose to focus on when a particular case, movement or dial was designed, manufactured, assembled, sold or actually being used. To complicate matters further, all of these can be from different years. It's possible to have a case designed in 1949 and manufactured in 1955, a movement designed in the late 40s and manufactured in the mid 50s to early 60s, and dials designed in the 40s and manufactured in the mid 50s to late 60s. A 1956 case can be assembled with a 1955 movement and a 1962 dial. So, when is the watch from? 1955? 1956? Or 1962? The answer isn't clear cut.

In the case of the "Fiddy", the evidence is that the 6152/1 case that it's based on was produced in 1955, a movement with a small seconds hand was available in 1955 (the 12.55 Angelus) and, finally, the Lumior dial was also available circa 1955 (Birindelli's watch).

So, with the point of departure being a tribute to Panerai's watchmaking in the 1950s, I do indeed find it reasonable that the "Fiddy", and all other modern Panerai watches based on its case, are labeled "Luminor 1950"

However, I also acknowledge that if your point of departure is that the "Fiddy" was supposed to be a near replica of one particular watch, that you reach another conclusion.

Cheers

Du verden hvilken kunnskap enkelte besitter! Må da fremheve @Dr. Fiddy spesiellt.
Få klokkemerker kan vise til lignende myter og historie enn Panerai. Tror ikke det finnes et merke med så mye "mystikk" og anekdoter.
Jeg har for lengst innsett at det lille jeg vet om dette merket, er knapt noe å vite....
Jeg lar meg imponere og fascinere av disse innleggene som er skrevet av e k t e Paneristi.

 

[Preacher]

Her er det bare å ta av seg den imaginære hatten, mtp. kunnskapsnivå @Dr. Fiddy Dette er forskjellen mellom TS og andre ikke navngitte såkalte forum.

Hat’s off to you Sir, and your level of knowledge and passion for Panerai. @pereztroika

 

[flyback]

Dette var det vintage TS-klasse over.

 

[pereztroika]

Ah the Birindelli watch...

Ok, one thing you need to understand about vintage Panerai watches is that once "Luminor" dials became available, the Marina Militare replaced all Radiomir dials on the watches that were in service. All watches delivered to the Marina Militare during the 1950s, without any exception, had Radiomir dials. This replacement happened without any doubt during the 1960s. All watches that were ordered from then on came with "Luminor" dials.

This is the reason why you can find many 6152/1 with regular screw-down crown and "Luminor" or "Marina Militare" dials. The original "Radiomir" dials were simply replaced.

This is documented. The old Radiomir dials, along with a few old 3646, were put in an ammunition box and sealed with concret. This box was sunk off the coast of La Spezia. I can probably get the exact date and the coordinates. Shall we go for a dive my friend?

The Sotheby's listing of the Birindelli watch is no evidence. It's just another auction listing with many faults. And on top of that it also contains a big lie... The Birindelli watch was never offered by the descendants of Birindelli as mentioned in the auction listing. The truth is, there is no real proof the watch ever belonged to Birindelli.

Sure, the watch was accompanied by a letter signed by Dino Zei. Let me tell you something about this letter. It was written by the owner of the watch who then paid an acquaintance of Zei in order to arrange a meeting. They met and the owner told Zei about the provenance and Zei, already 78 years old, signed the letter...

The guy who owned the watch was seen at a few Panerai meetings in Florence. I heard the watch didn't have the bezel in the beginning. It was added later to create the "Prototype" myth.

This very watch was offered just recently at Phillips. I was asked about my opinion and I wanted to see the documents proving the provenance... and guess what. All of a sudden all documents had disappeared. The new owner of the watch, who paid CHF 425,000.00 for it had lost the documents, really? In consequence, the watch was pulled.

The whole point of my article is that "Luminor 1950" is a contradiction cause Luminor didn't exist in the 1950s. Sure, Rolex made these watches in 1955 but according to the modern Panerai, the watches that were delivered to Panerai were "Radiomir 1940" cause they don't have the crown-protecting device.

"Radiomir 1940" is another myth that actually never existed. The first "Panerai" watches with lugs carved out of the same block of steel as the case, were made by Rolex in 1953 with Ref. 6152. Rolex not only supplied the movements, like the modern Panerai wants us to believe, Rolex made the whole watch and Panerai only added their dials.

G. Panerai e Figlio ordered 500 pieces of Ref. 6152/1 from Rolex. When orders of the Marina Militare came in, Panerai openend the box and took the amount of watches they needed and added their dial. On later orders, Panerai disassembled the watches, modified the case, attached the crown-protecting device and added their dials.

In the 1960s, when they introduced the Angelus 240, Panerai disassembled the watches, modified the case to attach the crown-protecting device, replaced the Rolex 618 with the Angelus 240 and added their new "Luminor" dials.

So what's the real production date? Some watches were delivered in 1956/57 without any modifications. Later watches were delivered with crown-protecting device. And in the 1960s, the watches were heavily modified. This modification was so extensive, it's basically like creating a new watch... so for me the the true production date for the 6152/1 with Angelus 240 is the 1960s.



Cheers

Jose

Thanks again for your extensive comments. I admire your level of detail here and also in your articles on perezcope.com. Your tenacity helps me focus my arguments too, and I'll try to explain why your point of departure isn't necessarily the only valid one

The overall question here is "What does the PAM 127 refer to?"
Was it supposed to be a near replica of one particular watch, i.e., the PAMPL001?
Or, was it supposed to be a tribute to a great era of Panerai watchmaking?

Based on the sources I have already cited, it seems to me that the latter is the case, and that's also my point of departure. However, my impression is that your point of departure is the former; that the 127 is meant to be a near replica of the PAMPL001. So, with different points of departures, we might view the evidence in a different light and possibly reach different conclusions

We have already discussed case designs and movements. So, what about the Luminor dial?



I can't see that you have provided any evidence to support your claim either. So, I'll provide a piece of evidence that counters your claim of Luminor being introduced around 1962/63 (I guess you're very familiar with this one).

At Sotheby’s auction “Important Watches”, held in Geneva on 14th May 2014, an extremely rare example of a Luminor from circa 1955 was sold for CHF 425,000. The watch belonged to the late Admiral Gino Birindelli (1911–2008) from the Royal Italian Navy.

Vis vedlegg 80130

REF 6152/1 LUMINOR CASE 12948 CIRCA 1955​

This early Luminor also came with a certificate letter signed by Dino Zei, who was the Chairman of Panerai during the years 1972–1997.

Officine Panerai themselves acknowledges that this Luminor is dated circa 1955:

Sotheby's Record Auction for Officine Panerai​

Its date is also acknowledged by your friend Jake Ehrlich on his blog Jake's Panerai World:

Ultra-Rare 1955 Luminor Panerai Prototype​

An important point is also what we mean by a date? What does it mean that a watch is from, e.g., 1955?
So, if the point of departure is Panerai's tribute to their watchmaking in the 1950s, what should we emphasize?

We can choose to focus on when a particular case, movement or dial was designed, manufactured, assembled, sold or actually being used. To complicate matters further, all of these can be from different years. It's possible to have a case designed in 1949 and manufactured in 1955, a movement designed in the late 40s and manufactured in the mid 50s to early 60s, and dials designed in the 40s and manufactured in the mid 50s to late 60s. A 1956 case can be assembled with a 1955 movement and a 1962 dial. So, when is the watch from? 1955? 1956? Or 1962? The answer isn't clear cut.

In the case of the "Fiddy", the evidence is that the 6152/1 case that it's based on was produced in 1955, a movement with a small seconds hand was available in 1955 (the 12.55 Angelus) and, finally, the Lumior dial was also available circa 1955 (Birindelli's watch).

So, with the point of departure being a tribute to Panerai's watchmaking in the 1950s, I do indeed find it reasonable that the "Fiddy", and all other modern Panerai watches based on its case, are labeled "Luminor 1950"

However, I also acknowledge that if your point of departure is that the "Fiddy" was supposed to be a near replica of one particular watch, that you reach another conclusion.

Cheers

 

[Dr. Fiddy]

Shall we go for a dive my friend?

I guess we should just agree to disagree on the 1950s vs 1960s and come back to this discussion depending on what we find during the dive...

Cheers my friend

 

[pereztroika]

Sure! One more thing, pls forget what you have read in books for a moment and just look at it with logic and common sense...

Good night!


Cheers

Jose

I guess we should just agree to disagree on the 1950s vs 1960s and come back to this discussion depending on what we find during the dive...

Cheers my friend

 

[pereztroika]

Good morning. Here's something very interesting. Check out Ehlers & Wiegmann's 1950s-1960s book on page 1125:

"The watches with the Luminor dial are some of the rarest examples of Reference GPF 2/56 known to date. Of the 25 watches registered in our database so far (as at 01/01/2016), only four examples (16 %) feature this type of dial."

"With reference to the period of manufacture for the version with the "Luminor Panerai" dial, the two Reference GPF 2/56 watches documented in this chapter provide us with an important clue: Both examples are fitted with Angelus movements that carry the date marking "MAI.61"."


Cheers and have a great day

Jose

I guess we should just agree to disagree on the 1950s vs 1960s.

Cheers my friend

 

[Gin]

Hmm.. It seems like Panerai has created a timeline for themselves a decade ahead of the “new” timeline created by @pereztroika - whom to me absolutely seems to be the correct one.

I wonder why this is so? Could it be to supress and “camouflage” the influence by the extensive deliveries to the Nazis?

Anyway, thanks for a great read Perestroika and thanks for finding your way to our small enthusiast forum, here in the “outer part of the world”.

Cheers!

 

[Dr. Fiddy]

Good morning. Here's something very interesting. Check out Ehlers & Wiegmann's 1950s-1960s book on page 1125:

"The watches with the Luminor dial are some of the rarest examples of Reference GPF 2/56 known to date. Of the 25 watches registered in our database so far (as at 01/01/2016), only four examples (16 %) feature this type of dial."

"With reference to the period of manufacture for the version with the "Luminor Panerai" dial, the two Reference GPF 2/56 watches documented in this chapter provide us with an important clue: Both examples are fitted with Angelus movements that carry the date marking "MAI.61"."

Interesting indeed, and particularly in light of these statements...

Btw, Ehlers & Wiegmann's books are full of made up watches and fakes.

Ehlers & Wiegmann are part of the problem...

One more thing, pls forget what you have read in books for a moment

First of all, that two of the four GPF 2/56 watches in E&W's database with Lumior dial have movements dated "MAI.61" is not evidence that Luminor dials didn't exist prior to 1961. Such a conclusion would just be an example of an unwarranted, inductive generalization that uses evidence about a limited number of things of a certain type to make a claim about all or most things of that type.

On the contrary, according Pasetto & Cipullo (Panerai - una storia italiano, 2013), all GPF 2/56 watches, with the exception of the movements, were completed by 1958. In other words, both the Radiomir and the Luminor dials for these watches were made in the late 1950s.

So, let's go back to the core issue here; the evidence for the existence of Luminor dials in the 1950s. You claim that:

"Luminor" was introduced around 1962/63, based on the results of my extensive research.

However, that claim has not been corroborated by others. On the contrary, several sources confirm that Luminor existed in the 1950s, e.g.:

• Ehlers & Wiegmann (1950s-1960s book, p. 1313), document the existence of a Ref. 6152/1 (case no. 124982) with crown guard and a Luminor dial with a "12.55" (December 1955) movement.

• The aforementioned Birindelli watch with a Luminor dial from circa 1955 (Sotheby's, 2014).

• Jake Ehrlich (Jake's Panerai World) makes the following comment on Birindelli's Luminor: "This watch basically marked the end of the line for Panerai's research & development of the watches in the mid 1950s. ... if you wore it today, it would look so contemporary and modern, yet is was made in 1955."

• Negretti (Panerai Historia, 2014) documents that "In the mid-1950s Panerai made two small exclusive series of watches for the Egyptian Navy... The first series was equipped with a Radiomir sandwich dial, despite the fact that the Luminor compound was now being used... but can be explained by the request made by the military for a stronger luminescence." (p. 90).

• The second series to the Egyptian Navy, the GPF 2/56, which, with the exception of the movements, were completed by 1958 (Pasetto & Cipullo, Panerai - una storia italiano, 2013, p. 301). Two versions were made. "One had a glossy case, usually with the inscription 'Radiomir Panerai,' and the other had a matte finish with 'Luminor Panerai.'" (Negretti, p. 95).

• Also, according to Negretti (Panerai Historia, 1999), "It was in this [postwar] period that the radium-based substance was gradually replaced by the non-radioactive Luminor paint, although it is possible that some Luminor dials were made experimentally while the war was still going on." (p. 42).

In other words, the overwhelming evidence clearly suggests the existence of Luminor dials in the 1950s.

Cheers

 

[pereztroika]

Interesting indeed, and particularly in light of these statements...

You're the one who only believes what is written in books

However, that claim has not been corroborated by others. On the contrary, several sources confirm that Luminor existed in the 1950s, e.g.:

Millions of people also confirm there is a guy in the sky who controls our lives. It must be true since it is written in a book

Ehlers & Wiegmann (1950s-1960s book, p. 1313), document the existence of a Ref. 6152/1 (case no. 124982) with crown guard and a Luminor dial with a "12.55" (December 1955) movement.

Again, the only modified 6152/1 that has a 12.55 (case number 124982, SMZ MM 186) was part to the last batch delivered to the Marina Militare in 1968. It's obvious that the 12.55 was either a left-over from the GPF 2/56 production or that is was replaced at some point.

This is the watch:

https://perezcope.com/2016/05/18/vintage-panerai-6152-1-with-angelus-240-on-chrono24/

The aforementioned Birindelli watch with a Luminor dial from circa 1955 (Sotheby's, 2014).

Just another faulty auction listing based on old information.

Jake Ehrlich (Jake's Panerai World) makes the following comment on Birindelli's Luminor: "This watch basically marked the end of the line for Panerai's research & development of the watches in the mid 1950s. ... if you wore it today, it would look so contemporary and modern, yet is was made in 1955."

Jake is a good friend of mine and we work together on various projects. What he wrote about the Birindelli watch was based on the Sotheby's listing, so no evidence.

Negretti (Panerai Historia, 2014) documents that "In the mid-1950s Panerai made two small exclusive series of watches for the Egyptian Navy... The first series was equipped with a Radiomir sandwich dial, despite the fact that the Luminor compound was now being used... but can be explained by the request made by the military for a stronger luminescence." (p. 90).

"...but can be explained" doesn't sound very confident, does it? As already mentioned, Negretti's statements have little weight since they are based on the fairy tales told by the well-known Italian Panerai dealer.

The second series to the Egyptian Navy, the GPF 2/56, which, with the exception of the movements, were completed by 1958 (Pasetto & Cipullo, Panerai - una storia italiano, 2013, p. 301).

This is your own interpretation of what you read... The authors don't mention a second series at all. Here's what they realy wrote:

"On that presumtion, the watches would have been completed by 1958 and deliveries carried out over the course of several years. This was, because with the exception of the Angelus 240 SF movement all components were made in Florence and this extended the production times given that Guido Panerai e Figlio, unlike Rolex SA, did not have a large number of workers to dedicate exclusively to the making of watches."

The authors talk about the watches that were delivered to Egypt. I don't think the "Luminor" GPF 2/56 were meant for Egypt. Giuseppe Panerai probably tried to sell them to the Italian Marina Militare.

However, Passetto & Cipullo agree with me on the introduction period of "Luminor". The thing about research is there will always be new findings. Just look at physics for instance, new knowledge is revealed every day. Would you insist, the findings in a book that was written 50 years ago to be still correct today?

Books are stupid. Once printed they cannot be updated. This is the reason why I publish my findings online and for free. I can always write new articles or update the old ones with new information.

Two versions were made. "One had a glossy case, usually with the inscription 'Radiomir Panerai,' and the other had a matte finish with 'Luminor Panerai.'" (Negretti, p. 95).

Yes, two versions were made. Negretti doesn't say a word about the prodction dates.

Also, according to Negretti (Panerai Historia, 1999), "It was in this [postwar] period that the radium-based substance was gradually replaced by the non-radioactive Luminor paint, although it is possible that some Luminor dials were made experimentally while the war was still going on." (p. 42).

Again, Negretti's statements are based on fairy tales, not on properly conducted research. And why would Panerai have made "Luminor" dials during WW2? Nobody cared about radiation in watches back then.

In other words, the overwhelming evidence clearly suggests the existence of Luminor dials in the 1950s.

I cannot see any evidence, sorry, just people guessing or copy pasting what others said.

Btw, I just talked to Loris Pasetto on the phone and he told me the ammunition box with the replaced Radiomir dials were sunk off the coast of La Spezia in 1971 (according to Marina Militare Commander Zavattaro, who later became a manager at Officine Panerai SpA).

So while "Luminor" was introduced in 1962/63, the replacement of old Radiomir dials took place much later.

It makes no sense that Panerai introduced a tritium-based lume in the 1950s since there was no need for it. The need for a harmless lume was only recognised after several US lawsuits had been filed against Rolex. These events mark the beginning of tritium-based lume in watches and Giuseppe Panerai saw this as an opportunity to create his own version.


Cheers

Jose

 

[Dr. Fiddy]

I cannot see any evidence

Ok, my friend. I think it's time to call it a day (or night in your case).

The good thing with proper research, in whatever form, is that it contains transparent data, relevant references to back up any claims, and that it's peer reviewed before it's published - else it isn't research. This also goes for whatever is published online.

Books are stupid. Once printed they cannot be updated.

Btw. books do actually come in new editions too...

I can't see that you have provided evidence yet for anything related to the first production dates of Luminor dials, although I asked for that already in my first comment to you... However, you eagerly state how everyone else is wrong, with no references to back up these statements.

You claim that:

the only modified 6152/1 that has a 12.55 (case number 124982, SMZ MM 186) was part to the last batch delivered to the Marina Militare in 1968.

However, that's irrelevant to the discussion regarding when Luminor dials were first made. Even if that watch was actually delivered in 1968, it doesn't change the fact that the case was made in 1955 and that the movement was also made in 1955. The delivery date says nothing about the production date.

You also claim that:

This is your own interpretation of what you read... The authors don't mention a second series at all.

Well, I can only repeat what I quoted verbatim by the author: "In the mid-1950s Panerai made two small exclusive series of watches for the Egyptian Navy." (Negretti, Panerai Historia, 2014, p.90).

I have come to understand that you don't really want to discuss actual evidence regarding the Luminor dial. You still just claim that it was introduced in 1962/63 without any references to back your claim up. I'm fine with that. I guess at this point, it would be better we continue over a beer than boring everyone here at this forum

So, again, I suggest that we agree to disagree as we don't seem to get any further.

All the best,

Cheers

 

[Dr. Fiddy]

Interessant intervju med Angelo Bonati:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/angelo-bonati-21-years-panerai-interview

 

[kyrrer]

Har Panerai submersibles gjort et hopp på bruktmarkedet? Mener jeg så flere ned i 28' i fjor sommer'ish, mens nå ser jeg både her og på finn at de ligger fra 40' og oppover.

Gjorde det desto verre å sitte og se på at en 00024-B løp ut tiden til £2k på eBay, rett etter at kontoen er tømt på sommerferiebestillinger...

 

[Trulle75]

Er det andre enn Bjerke som som er AD for Panerai i Norge?
På grunn av det tullet med ventelister på R--X frister det lite å legge igjen penger hos Bjerke.

 

[Dr. Fiddy]

Er det andre enn Bjerke som som er AD for Panerai i Norge?
På grunn av det tullet med ventelister på R--X frister det lite å legge igjen penger hos Bjerke.

Nei, kun Bjerke...